| A Conversation With Dana Gioia
 
 Editor's Note: This is the unabridged version of the Response conversation 
            with Dana Gioia that was printed in the Summer 2004 issue.
 
 Q: In 1992’s Can Poetry Matter?, you challenged us 
 
                                    to bring poetry back out of seclusion in academia. Have you noticed any progress in this?
 A: I’m both encouraged and discouraged by the trends in 
 
                                    American art. What I find most encouraging in poetry, and in some of the 
 
                                    other arts, is the growing awareness that the vitality of culture depends 
 
                                    on engaging a broad, mixed audience.
 Most of the innovation in American poetry that’s happened over the 
 
                                                            past 10 years has happened outside the university. We have a renewal 
 
                                                            of interest in poetry and the other arts by non-professionals. We are 
 
                                                            also seeing a groundswell of community-based activities in the arts. 
 
                                                            This trend takes many forms. It ranges from bookstore readings to 
 
                                                            neighborhood book clubs to grassroots performance groups in theatre and 
 
                                                            music. People understand, at a deep, instinctive level, the power of 
 
                                                            art to build and refine community identity. This seems, to me, a wonderful 
 
                                                            and important trend.          The university has an extremely important part to play in all of
 
            the arts, but it is not a part that can be done alone. There needs
 
            to be a broader dialogue in society between artists, academics, bohemians
 
            and the general audience.  What I find discouraging is the continuing
 
              encroachment of the commercial, electronic media on American culture.
 
              Reading and other sorts of cultural activities are in decline as
 
              people spend more time with television, the Internet, iPods, DVDs  
 
                                                                                    all of the electronic paraphernalia. I worry that the average American 
 
                                                                                    is becoming more of a passive consumer and less of an active and 
 
                                                                                    engaged individual. Q: It seems that religious art has become a sort 
 
                                                            of ghetto all its
 
            own, suffering from a loss of quality, integrity and relevance, and
 
            lacking the cultural prominence it once had. What needs to happen
 
            in order for that to change?
 
            A: One of the most troubling legacies we face at 
 
                                                                        the beginning of the 21st century
 
            is the separation between religion and art that occurred during the
 
            20th century. Art became an almost entirely secular enterprise, and
 
            worship became increasingly separated from contemporary forms of
 
            art. This schism impoverished both art and worship. In art, it left
 
            us, by the end of the 20th century, with a shallow nihilism and cynical
 
            elitism that typified many artistic communities. In religion, it
 
            gave us a legacy of bad architecture, sentimental art and often-inappropriate
 
            music.
 As a writer, I particularly lament the separation between
 
              the religious and the aesthetic. Many of my favorite modern novelists
 
            belong to the minority of Catholic authors  writers like Evelyn 
 
                                                                        Waugh, Graham Greene, Flannery O’Connor, James Joyce, Muriel Spark, 
 
                                                                        Anthony Burgess and J.R.R. Tolkien. These writers all created from 
 
                                                                        the highest literary standards, but with the most profound spiritual 
 
                                                                        aspirations. American literature is full of enormous spiritual hungers 
 
                                                                        that are yet to be well satisfied. I deeply admire modern Christian 
 
                                                                        poets like T.S. Eliot and W.H. Auden. For writers of faith, reconciling 
 
                                                                        the artistic and the spiritual is the great work of the new century.  Q: How have you endeavored to restore the NEA’s 
 
                                                            integrity after the controversies of its recent history?
 
            
 
            A: There are two ways of answering the question. One 
 
                                                                        is to say: The role of running the NEA is to avoid risk and controversy. 
 
                                                                        Or you can say: The way that you rebuild the agency is not by avoiding 
 
                                                                        risk, but by accomplishing positive things. My whole strategy here 
 
                                                                        has been to change the reputation and to rebuild the agency by creating 
 
                                                                        programs of indisputable public value. That seems to me a more positive 
 
                                                                        and productive strategy than simply trying to lie low.
  Q: There is a new DVD player technology that lets 
 
                                                            you edit out violence, foul language and nudity from movies, with the goal of
 
            making the movies safe for children. What are your views on this
 
            increasingly public debate over the difference between censorship
 
            and the conscientious filtering of art and entertainment?  A: It’s a complicated question. In our society, 
 
                                                            artists should have freedom, but so should the audience. Artists should 
 
                                                            be free to create how they see best. But by the same token, artists 
 
                                                            should not believe that they have an entitlement to an audience. Every 
 
                                                            member of the audience has the freedom to accept or reject a work of art, 
 
                                                            as well as to edit it for their personal use.                For example, people read books and skip over parts they don’t find 
 
                                                            interesting. There should be no compulsion that the moment you open a 
 
                                                            book, you have a legal obligation to read every word. There should be 
 
                                                            freedom to view films and to fast forward.                 As a parent, I feel increasingly a responsibility to take stewardship
 
            over what my children see. I cannot trust the culture to make those
 
            decisions for me. Most parents are concerned about violence and sexuality
 
            in what their children see. But I’m equally concerned by the crass 
 
                                                                        commercialism, the cheapness and the pervasive vulgarity that I see 
 
                                                                        in the mass media, which in some ways are as bad on reality game shows 
 
                                                                        as they are on any cop movie.  Freedom works at every level of our society. The audience’s great 
 
                                                            power is to say “yes” or “no.” And if it loses that power, or relegates 
 
                                                            that power to others, then it gives up an essential element of self-determination. 
 
                                                            The marketplace, even in the high arts, is very powerful. Q: How does your personal faith influence your work 
 
                                                            for the NEA?
 
                
 
            A: One’s spiritual life nourishes and informs every 
 
                                                                        aspect of one’s social and private life. I do not run the National 
 
                                                                        Endowment for the Arts with any religious bias. But I do deeply believe 
 
                                                                        in the spiritual power of art.
 We are in a culture in which people are spiritually starved, and
 
            these hungers are not satisfied by popular entertainment. The arts
 
            have an enormous responsibility to nourish the souls of people. I
 
            feel that the main thing that I’m doing at the Endowment is focusing 
 
                                                                        on bringing art of indisputable quality to the broadest audiences 
 
                                                                        possible. By the end of next year, we will have brought a million 
 
                                                                        high school kids, among many other audiences, into their first production 
 
                                                                        of Shakespeare.             Something else that we’re doing at the Endowment is this: We’re 
 
                                                            encouraging faith-based organizations to apply. In the past, many such 
 
                                                            organizations have felt either unwelcome or uninformed about possibilities 
 
                                                            of receiving federal funding. I’m very proud that among our first-time 
 
                                                            grant recipients this year are many faith-based organizations. The NEA 
 
                                                            exists to serve all Americans. Last time I heard, some of those Americans were religious. Q: 
 
                                                            The NEA’s new study, Reading at Risk, reveals such dispiriting 
 
                                                            news about the decline of reading in our society. How about publishing “Six Steps to Save Reading”?
 
                  
 
            A: The Pacific Northwest and the Mountain States have 
 
                                                                        maintained the highest levels of reading in the United States. You 
 
                                                                        read more than New York City does. We look to you for leadership.
 The NEA purposely issued the report without recommendations. Government
 
            agencies attach recommendations to their more troubling reports,
 
            the reports that outline crises. We deliberately did not do that
 
            with Reading at Risk, because there is a necessity to create a national
 
            debate about these issues. There is no one reason why this is happening.
 
            There will be no one solution to the issue. The way that we will
 
            arrest, or reverse, the decline in reading in America is by attacking
 
            the problem at every level of our society.  I, of course, have a great
 
              many ideas about what we should do. I don’t, however, feel that my 
 
                                                                                    ideas begin to exhaust the possibilities. My own instincts tell me 
 
                                                                                    that the three areas in which we should focus are education, public 
 
                                                                                    activities and media coverage.             Let me explain. First, we need at every level of education to emphasize
 
            reading, not only as a technique to master, but also as a pleasurable
 
            and engaging activity. From my own observation, I think that colleges
 
            are greatly at fault in contemporary English departments. They have
 
            taken the joy out of reading and made it dully analytical. If you
 
            look at the Reading at Risk report, you see that reading correlates
 
            with education. So, as our nation becomes ostensibly better educated,
 
            with more college graduates than ever before, it is bitterly ironic
 
            that reading would be declining with every group. Something is not
 
            happening in our educational process that turns people into lifelong
 
            readers. Reading in our culture has been separated from pleasure.             Second, there’s a social aspect of reading that intellectuals like 
 
                                                            you and me ignore. Most people want to read things that other people are 
 
                                                            reading. They want to be able to talk about them and to participate in 
 
                                                            a civic aspect of literature. That’s why things like Oprah’s Book Club, 
 
                                                            or the neighborhood book club, are so important. It provides many people 
 
                                                            with social reinforcement of this behavior, and allows them to explore 
 
                                                            their own ideas and listen to other people’s reactions. A hundred years 
 
                                                            ago, this simply happened naturally, as people read books, passed them 
 
                                                            on and talked about them. In our culture, we have to do it artificially, 
 
                                                            through book clubs. If that’s the case, then I think that we need to 
 
                                                            create thousands of reading-oriented social activities, from community 
 
                                                            book clubs; to singles’ book clubs; to seniors’ book clubs; to Catholic, 
 
                                                            Lutheran and Buddhist book clubs  in order to create reading communities.             And finally, media tells us what our society thinks is important:
 
            entertainment, sports, money, food, health, traffic, weather. We
 
            tend to see ourselves, and our society, as the media portrays it.
 
            And when you cut off reading from that media mix, you do not nourish
 
            reading and literature. You can see what media attention on Harry
 
            Potter did for the sales of that individual book. You can see what
 
            Oprah’s selection of Anna Karenina on her book club did for 
 
                                                                        the new translation of that novel. If we could, in thousands of 
 
                                                                        different situations, create discussion and recognition of reading 
 
                                                                        literature  as well as the other arts  that would, in 
 
                                                                        and of itself, arrest the problem. I don’t know if it would reverse 
 
                                                                        it, but it would it would make a significant difference. Q: Clearly, Oprah's Book Club has had a major impact on the
 
            publishing industry and what Americans read. What would you put on
 
            the short list for "Gioia's Book Club"?A: I can tell you about a few of the books that 
 
                                                                        have affected me most deeply in my life. Two that come to mind are 
 
                                                                        St. Augustine’s City of God and Thomas à Kempis’ Imitation 
 
                                                                        of Christ. From Augustine, I learned the power of community. 
 
                                                                        From Thomas à Kempis, I learned the necessity of contemplation and 
 
                                                                        solitude.
 
                      
 
Another philosophical work that has deeply affected me is Miguel de Unamuno’s
 
 The Tragic Sense of Life, which made me, an Italian-Mexican living in an 
 
 Anglo-Saxon nation, understand the nature of my Latin worldview.
  Q:  From your perspective as an artist of faith, how does
 
  art reveal the nature of God and reflects spiritual realities?A: If you believe in God, then you must accept that there
 
  is a meaning and coherence in the world. You must also believe there
 
  is a correspondence between the material and the spiritual realms
 
  of existence, even if you cannot easily discern it. The purpose of
 
  art, therefore, is to explore and illuminate that meaning, that coherence,
 
  and correspondence. That is the task of Christian art, even when
 
  it has no overtly religious subject. That has certainly not been
 
  the enterprise of post-modernism, which has customarily sought to
 
  deny meaning and demonstrate incoherence.
 
 
            
 
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